Most of you will know that I have lived in Catalonia now for six years. In that time there have been I think three General Elections, a Catalan Independence Referendum, an EU election and two local elections. I am allowed to vote in local elections and was allowed to vote in EU Elections. My Polish wife still can vote in future EU Elections, I of course cannot. Neither of us are allowed to vote in General Elections or any future independence referendums.
While I sympathise with the Catalans in their struggle for independence, I do not feel it is either my place or right to have a vote in any future referendum. I chose to move here in December 2015. I had taken the decision on Friday, September, 19th, 2014. It took me over a year though to actually be in a position to make the move.
We have integrated very well into our life here in Catalonia. We live in a very small town halfway between Barcelona and Tarragona. There were many reasons we chose to make our life here. The first consideration was my wife’s only daughter, and her grandchildren live just 20kms.from our home.
Another deciding factor is my health issues. They respond better to the Spanish climate rather than the Scottish one. Then there is the cost of living of course, it is much cheaper to live in rural Spain than anywhere in Scotland. Public transport is cheap and very efficient.The biggest bonus is that our neighbours are welcoming and friendly. We have never encountered any kind of anti-immigrant racist behaviour.
The price of food is a fraction to that of Scotland. The quality is also of the highest standards as you would expect from any EU country. A litre bottle of Gordons is also almost half the price of the same stuff in Barrhead!! What’s not to like?
We also could afford to buy a large villa and fix it up the way we wanted. It wasn’t quite derelict when we purchased it, but it wasn’t far from it! Everything in the house has been replaced except the roof. Even then many of the roof tiles have had to be renewed. We have new doors, floors, skirting boards, new windows, a new kitchen and bathroom extension. We replumbed and rewired the house completely. We even built a new extension/summer house in the bottom garden. The villa sits on 700 square metres of ground overlooking the Mediterranean Sea. For us it is idyllic.
The climate means we have all the year round vegetables and fruit from our garden. Two Olive trees dominate the front garden along with a swimming pool we had built. There is an almond tree, three lemon trees one orange and one pomegranate tree. In the summer we have ample supplies of tomatoes, peppers potatoes and beans. I must of course, not forget my own medicinal plants all grown perfectly legally. The herb and vegetable gardens are lovingly tended by my wife.
The cost of getting the property and grounds up to the level we have now cost a considerable amount of Euros. I do not begrudge a cent of that investment into our home. When we first purchased the property, we had to pay 10% of the purchase price in taxes. The seller had to pay the same % on the difference between the price he paid in 1975 to his selling price in 2015.
This heavy taxation on houses is why you do not tend to get a property bubble in Spain, except in the British immigrants areas in their Anglo enclaves. Homes in Spain tend to remain in families and hence why Spain has some of the highest home ownership in Europe as well as a low amount of local mortgage holders.
Spaniards though prefer living in flats.Spain has the highest proportion of flat-dwellers in Europe and the lowest percentage of people living in houses, according to a new report by Eurostat.
The latest figures on European housing reveal that two out of three Spaniards live in a flat, while in countries such as Britain, Croatia and Norway, more than 80 percent of people live in houses. But unlike their flat-dwelling European cousins, most Spaniards own their own homes – 80 percent own while only 20 percent rent. They just prefer those homes to be flats and not houses.
https://www.thelocal.es/20151127/spain-the-nation-with-the-most-flat-dwellers-in-europe/
We enjoy life here it is less stressful than living in UK. There is also the added advantage there are not many days where we cannot be outside without the need for survival suits. The locals are friendly, the bars and restaraunts inexpensive. We purposely bought in an area that is not popular with the British and German hordes in the summer.
Our town has a wonderful beach and only Spanish tourists. They usually arrive for the entire month of August. The occasional Brit or German sometimes appear but not very often. Our area is a secret in UK and Germany. I hope it stays that way.
Our renovation of the property means we gave paid a lot of taxes. It has also meant that we have provided a fair amount of work for local tradesmen and companies. We attend the fiestas and attend local events whenever we are able. We feel it is important to participate with our neighbours.We have quite hefty local taxes (IBI) however the local services are far superior to anything back home. Fly tipping is a rarity as your IBI covers uplifts of household items. The beaches and surrounding areas are kept immaculate, and you rarely ever see litter or pavements covered in chewing gum.
My point is simply this, as immigrants living in Catalonia/Spain we are integrated, committed to staying here, and tax payers. We both have paid and continue to pay taxes while living here. This is where we choose to spend our remaining days. Should I live for another 30 years to get my telegram from the English monarch I will never be given a Constitutional vote by either the Catalan or Spanish Governments. I will not be permitted to vote on Catalonia secession.I will not be permitted to help elect the next Spanish Government. I agree with that!
I think I should not be allowed to get any of those constitutional votes. We looked at the world and decided this was the best place for us to live. It suited our needs. The way generations of Catalan and Spaniards had constructed life here dovetailed with our requirements. How dare we have the audacity to demand we get to vote to choose how they should be governed. They made a good job of things without our interference. We are here by choice, not by birth.
Let us pretend for a moment that Catalonia is ruled from Edinburgh and not Madrid. Let us also assume just as in 2014 in Scotland everyone that can elect a local Councillor is allowed to vote for or against independence. If I was allowed to vote in that Independence referendum, I would vote for Edinburgh to continue to rule over Catalonia.
It would be a natural thing for me to do. It would reflect my loyalty to my nation of birth and allow me to have a safety net. Dare I say the best of both worlds?
That being ruled from Edinburgh is not the best outcome for Catalan people would be of no concern to me. I would be voting for what was best for me and my nation of birth, not my nation of residence. Emotion would outweigh logic everytime.
If in time to come I decided to return to my roots in Scotland, my vote in their referendum would affect the locals forever. I would have abandoned their nation to return to Scotland after they had allowed me a vote!
Perhaps I may have decided to live in another country altogether. Again unlike Scotland I would not be given a vote on Constitutional matters in my latest country of residence.
My Catalan referendum vote would be leaving them ruled from a foreign land albeit my land of birth. Meanwhile, I have left Catalonia behind. It is human nature people tend to be loyal to themselves and their country of birth before anything else.
Why should anyone in Scotland be surprised that 72% of English people living in Scotland voted for London rule over Edinburgh rule in 2014. Why would anyone think that in any future referendum the English immigrants would vote any differently than they did in 2014? Finally ask yourself this if England ever grew a, spine and decided to secede from the Union do you think they would seek permission from Edinburgh? If there was to be a referendum do you think they would permit Scots, Welsh, Irish any non English to vote in their self-determination?
As we have had no census, unlike other parts of Union we can only speculate on numbers of non Scots that have arrived from England since 2014. Anecdotal noise tells us over 50,000 English people are escaping the madness every year from the failing society in England and relocating in Scotland.
Living in Scotland suits their needs. No need to learn a new language or currency either. Come a referendum vote No just as an added security to their circumstances. What I find bizarre is the amount of Independence supporting Scots that want to allow a demographic that is likely by 72% to vote against our self-determination to be permitted in the franchise. No other nation on the planet allows non citizens a vote on their Constitutional matters. Does that make every other nation in the world Blood and Soil Nationalists? Only in Scotland can you step off of a bus, a train or plane and by the middle of the next week have a vote on Scotland’s next thousand years of existence! This Scottish exceptionalism is self-defeating nonsense downright stupid and needs to stop! .
On a miserable , wet day in Glasgow all I felt on reading this was ENVY!
Politics can’t compare with lemon and orange trees in your garden nor with a swimming pool for which you don’t have to wear a wet suit to use.
I’ve totally come round to a different franchise if we go the referendum route though I would be okay with long term residents (over say 10 years) having a vote. It’s all very well being inclusive but if that inclusivity cuts your nose and it not the same as the franchise everywhere else, well let’s not spite our face/future.
Iain Lawson said that it’s forecast that by 2050 if things remain the same, Scots will be a minority group in Scotland. That’s unacceptable.
“Iain Lawson said that it’s forecast that by 2050 if things remain the same, Scots will be a minority group in Scotland. .”
And you beleive anything you are told without proof ? : Seriously ?
I believe Iain Lawson he never gives out anything without verifying it first. You on the other hand not as far as, I could throw you.
Just after the 2014 referendum the Daily Mail had a headline crowing it was the English that won it for us.
Utterly bizarre article. I cannot imagine why any sane person, living in and committed to their country of residence, would want to go along with and agree happily to exclusion from fundamental decisions which would be likely to have major implications for themselves and the communities in which they are integrated.
An extraordinary admission that if Catalonia were ruled from Edinburgh, you would vote for this to continue because of the benefits to yourself and your *loyalty* to your *country of birth* without any consideration of the needs and aspirations of the people in your shared community. You would rather give precedence to an accident of birth over any obligation to those you live alongside and in many ways depend on. If that is not a definition of a blood and soil nationalist, I don’t know what is.
The vote one casts is determined by what one consider best both for self, family and fellow countrymen and sometimes there is tension between all three. The same elements are there in local and national elections. Your assumption that people will always opt for the purely selfish position is quite insulting. You are denying one of the central tenets of socialism.
As an English born resident of Scotland, I have every right to have a say in what will undoubtedly affect my family and fellow citizens. My accident of birth – and for all of us it is an accident – may have had a formative effect on my outlook, but that does not prevent me from having the capacity to make an informed judgement on what is best for Scotland’s future. In my case, I considered that Independence was far and away the best choice for Scotland – certainly for my family and people in Scotland, even though there may have been some personal financial penalties.
Other people will have reached a different conclusion, but to presume that their decision is based purely on selfish consideration is perhaps a reflection of your own tendency. Nearly half of Scotsborn voters voted against independence, most, I believe, because they considered a smaller independent Scotland would be less preferable than a larger United Kingdom. But they, and Other residents living in but born furth of Scotland, have every right to make that decision. They were not convinced by the arguments put to them.
To continue this vendetta against English born residents is counter productive – particularly since there is no referendum occasion in sight. Are you going to exclude non Scots born citizens from a plebiscite? Your approach is insulting. Who the fuck are you to “other” me and people like me? To tell us that we are somehow lesser beings than people like you living in Catalonia?
Stu Campbell, whose opinions and judgement I value greatly, advised you to leave this alone, but of course, you know best. During the last referendum, I managed to persuade about 18 of my friends and associates, most of them Scots born, to vote Yes. Not a huge amount of people, but if you are taking multipliers like me out of the game, you are seriously adrift. You seem to be completely oblivious to the effect you are having by “othering” us denting my enthusiasm even more than Sturgeon and her acolytes are.
Please direct your efforts into persuading those Scots born and those born elsewhere that an independent Scotland is a worthwhile and attractive prospect
Well perhaps if you could name any nation in the world that allows foreign nationals to vote on Constitutional elections we might take you seriously. Again I suspect you are either a colonised House Jock or a foreign national to Scotland
Hear hear Roddy, just another entitled English colonial who thinks they are entitled to decide on Scotland’s future.
Interesting that you simply resort to pejorative labelling rather than engaging with anything i have said. Paucity of thought?
First of all, I am not a foreign national. Constitutional arrangements that have existed for hundreds of years mean that anyone born in the United Kingdom is, whether you like it or not, a British citizen, entitled, should they choose, to live and work in any of its constituent parts. So if I wish to move from Skye to Bristol, I do not need England’s permission to do this. I bring with me all my voting rights.
Scotland, a constituent part of the UK, is a country “marked by a line on a map, like every other country, and that fact alone should men those living there should be entitled to choose our own governments. No more, no less” ( Stu Campbell). It would follow that all those entitled to live and vote there should have a say in the constitutional future of that country since they will be directly affected by the outcome of such a decision. So while I have every entitlement to vote in whatever election or referendum is put to those living and working in Scotland, you would seem to have quite willingly forfeited this by choosing to live in another country. – which you are quite entitled to do. I am just a little puzzled about why you seem to have so little concern in the future of your adopted country.
The civic nationalism adopted as the franchise for the 2014 referendum was discussed ad infinitum and was celebrated as a beacon of democracy, precisely because it varied from the ethnic nationalism that applied in so many previous instances. It was regarded as the most appropriate mechanism for a modern inclusive democracy reflecting the rights of freedom of movement – and indeed the mixed ethnic makeup of most modern societies. I see nothing that would justify moving away from that principle and I would hope that an independent Scotland would retain it.
So your tired question of what other countries have done in the past is quite irrelevant.
The people living within the boundaries of Scotland are a mixed and varied population. There are very few Scottish family trees devoid of incomer influences, We all have emotional attachments to our forebears and their cultures and histories – but irrespective of what they are, all of us in this country have a right to say what kind of future we want – the crofter in the Western Isles; the Nigerian mechanic who has made his home in Scotland and fixes my car; my niece’s Scottish landlord who neglects to repair her flat; the English pensioner who has moved to Scotland for a better life…
I might have little in common with many I live beside in Scotland. I might disagree politically, ethically, morally with some – but it would be the height of arrogance to try to disenfranchise some of them as you seem to be arguing. I think Stu Campbell once again sums up my feeling very precisely:-
“…If you want to deny 20% of the people who live in Scotland the vote in a referendum because they were born somewhere else, we’re not on the same side. If you want their votes, fucking well persuade them. If you can’t, your case is shit…”
I do not think the case for independence is “shit”. I want the kind of future and values ALBA is presently presenting for myself, my children and grand children – and for all of us in Scotland. I would be extremely despondent if it were to adopt the kind of narrow ethnic nationalism you seem to espouse.
Right just a spineless House-Jock. Before being allowed to debate you need to answer a simple question. Name 3 things that can only be achieved by the British Union that cannot be achieved by an independent Scotland.
“Name 3 things that can only be achieved by the British Union that cannot be achieved by an independent Scotland.”
1: Stay in a full monetary Union. This means Scottish MP’s get a say in Interest Rates and Monetary supply, if Scotland were outside Monetary Union (ie with SNP’s Sterlingisation) Scotland would have no say in Scottish Interest rates or Monetary control those things would be decided wholly by RUK not Scotland. (Don’t make me laugh by suggesting Scotland would have a new curreny as Scotland just doesn’t have the finances to defende any new currency in the Currency Markets. (Memories of Lamont and EMU woes should still be fresh in older peoples minds surely. When currency speculators can force the UK out of EMU much Scotland would have Zero chance against them).
2: Remain in the UK wide tariff free market that exists across the UK. Leaving the UK and rejoining the EU means EU imposed Tariffs on goods to the 59% of Scotlands Exports that go to RUK while only 18% of Scotlands Exports go to the EU, as RUK would be outside of the EU while Scotland is inside it , that massively going to harm Scotlands Exports.
3: Keep the UK Fiscal Transfer that Scotland receives on top of all Scotlands own finances currently worth £12bn per year or 15% of all of Scotlands Public Services right now. https://fraserofallander.org/gers-day-2-after-the-hullaballoo/
There you go wasn’t too difficult was it ?
As usual complete inability to read and understand a simple question. Why would any independent nation use another nations monetary system especially one that is failing and heading for default? Any independent nation can have it s own monetary system as will the independent Scotland do no that is not a relevant answer.
2.Again a ridiculous answer are you seriously suggesting that RUK would cease trading with an independent Scotland? So you will allow 25% of England to forgo any electricity? Never drink whisky or gin, go without seafood and import your oil from Putin? Again trade between two nations is not unique to remaining in the Union. Another ridiculous answer
3.Why would any independent nation need a fiscal transfer you clown? Read the question again I asked what can be achieved by British Union not what you think Scotland cannot do. You lot are as thick as shite in the neck of a bottle.
What part of it is it that you don’t understand that it would be the EU that would apply tarrifs as Scotland would be inside the EU and RUK would be outside of it ?
Tariffs would be applied by the EU between Scotland and RUK just as they are appled between any other EU and Non EU country , this is hardly difficult to understand.
The only country the EU makes allowances for is Eire and Northern Ireland because of the Historial Troubles there.
https://consoc.org.uk/northern-ireland-a-constitutional-exception-and-why-it-matters/
You’re a foreign colonial tae me.
““…If you want to deny 20% of the people who live in Scotland the vote in a referendum because they were born somewhere else, we’re not on the same side. If you want their votes, fucking well persuade them. If you can’t, your case is shit…”
Not just their Votes but they pay their taxes to Scotland too and its only commonsense if you pay income taxes to a country as a working peson they you should have a say about how it is governed.
You didn’t read or understand the article. Perhaps there is, an adult around that could explain it to you
Name any other country in the world that allows foreigners a vote on constitutional matters??.
” I cannot imagine why any sane person, living in and committed to their country of residence, would want to go along with and agree happily to exclusion from fundamental decisions which would be likely to have major implications for themselves and the communities in which they are integrated.”
I have lived and worked in Southern England for some 46 years. Even today, I feel my voice and opinions should not affect that country one jot…..for it is NOT my country. England for the English( or the dolly mixtures as I call them, for it is quite hard now to find a genuine Englishman). Scotland for the Scots……I say.
I like my stay in England but if anyone said to me you will become English and speak with an English accent , then with tent under arm and roller skates oiled up I would be heading north to the border with all speed, tae be amang my ain folk, all loyal and true……well so I’d like to think.
Now I am not so sure.
For now, I hear rumours of communism, MI5 plants and sleepers, anti- Christian masons and plain outright satanists.
England seems a safer place , to me, than Scotland.
I worry about those romantic noodle-headed Inglis, settled north of the border. Do they have any ken of what they have let themselves in for?
Poor Catalonia! They have bigger problems than the franchise in getting a fair vote.
“Poor Catalonia! They have bigger problems than the franchise in getting a fair vote”
Catalonia isn’t poor , its the richest part of Spain , thats sort of the point its hardly very Socialist for the rich walking away and leaving the rest of Spain to be then poorer for it overall. In what sort of Socialist Society is that acceptable ? If anything behaving like that is Tory values surely ?
Catalonia of course is the opposite position to Scotland now that the Oil Industry is no longer the Golden Goose that it was 40 years ago. Oil Revenues were only about £0.6Bn last year to Scotland , by the time 2030 comes around the Oil Industry will be costing us Money to decommission and will be producing ziltch.
What utter nonsense you write.Tell me if oil is so worthless and Scotland such a drain on the English why do they hang on to Scotland so tightly?
Pish!.
Is this the new version of the oil will run out in the next 5 years that the Britnats have been spouting for the last 50 years every time an election/referendum comes along.
All the revenues go to Westminster direct and Westminster dictates how much these revenues are. The Golden Goose always laid its golden eggs in Westminster.
Sick of this utter tripe spouted by people like you Susan
Using edinburgh as an example is a little diffierent to then using English? Edinburgh is part of our home nations and as such in a union with England, wales and NI. Spain has no connection to Edinburgh. The example you should have used is the number of Europeans who voted to remain due to the threat of losing out on the EU membership when Scotland was allegedly turfed out (that would have happened).
Many of the europeans voted to remain for this very reason and are now no longer here.
I am sure there are a lot of Spaniards living in Catalonia who did the same as the English here. Which would be a better comparison.
The analogy you use is at best inaccurate and comparing stones to diamonds, they are not the same thing 🙁 However, if you merely swap your English comparison to europeans, polish, German, French, Italian, even Spanish etc etc you get a far easier picture to understand 😉
I am sure when you wrote this you thought it was a clever repost, it wasn’t! Utter nonsense and if you didn’t grasp the point I assume you are either a colonised Scot or a foreign national.
Good to know, Roddy, these people are reading work dedicated to Scottish Independence Perhaps a little independence-related knowledge will rub off on them!
The dear English didn’t allow EU citizens to vote in the Brexit referendum.
Why sould we harm ourselves?
First of all, we should abandon the referendum route to Indy, it is laden with traps, open to abuse and propaganda if it ever happens. We must press our elected MPs and MSPs to adopt the route of asserting our sovereignty by simply voting on weather to end the trade agreement known as the Union.
Totally agree that this is the way forward. Immediate action required.
I agree. The referendum route is not the best.
All MP’s and MSP’s should declare independence just as the Irish, for example, did.
The Irish declared it 2 months, after wiping out the IIP of Parnell at the UK 1918 GE.
Just was on one website tonight and was called a racist because I pointed out that 1 million English settlers now live in Scotland. 30k English students study here 29k English off shore oil workers and 13k English troops , which can be bolstered as soon as an independence referendum is called. They all get a vote on Scottish independence , a voting franchise only fit for a council election not a constitutional election.The UN recognises that the indigenous population should only get the vote on constitutional matters.This is an agreed approach to Decolonisation from the UN. However some people want to follow Westminsters Gerrymandered Franchise which lost indy ref 1. Once we win a YES vote all other nationals including the English settlers can be offered citizenship. We all know English friends who will vote for independence. Its fullish to assume in excess of 1 million will. Remember EVIL English vote for English laws that was only revoked last August cause it prevented the racism card being used by Westminster in us changing the voting franchise to the UN model. The Union have the voting franchise rigged and the SNP know this hence they have delayed the Scottish census under the guise of Covid. We must win if we go for a referendum it’s a dangerous route but I think we should use the next UK election instead as a mandate to disolve the Union a safer option. Do not put you trust in the leadership of those who pretended to pertain to independence.
I can only assume those that advocate continuing the same franchise used in 2014 in any future referendum are not really invested in independence. Judging by the leadership’s lack of enthusiasm and lack of planning for independence it is totally clear that they are simply stalling as long as possible for as long as voters are prepared to suspend all disbelief.
However, their supporters who scream ‘nativist’ or ‘blood and soil nationalist’ do not convince me that they want independence either. They seem to be supporters of the SNP simply because of niche policies and not because independence is of any importance to them. It is simply a vehicle for their own cause and the SNP leadership play to this, seeing them as ready voting fodder. The leadership cabal cynically reckons that this (mainly young) voting base are easy to please, having only one simple aim which is not independence or even social justice for the disadvantaged. Easy then to keep them on board as long as you deliver their cherished ambitions for them while the difficult stuff like preparing for independence and planning for Scotland’s future can be ignored.
As for the rest who also unthinkingly bleat the same slogans, then we have to be suspicious why they are so ready also to alienate independence supporters and treat them as the enemy. In all the years I voted SNP for the sake of independence, I would have welcomed genuine support for independence from other parties in Scotland. So why the intense enmity now and use of insulting labels associated with Nazism? I am highly suspicious of those who employ these epithets so readily against independence supporters, guaranteed to foment division which can only please Unionists. (Funnily enough, I first came across these insults being employed during the 2014 referendum campaign by Unionists. The use of the same insulting labels by supposed supporters of independence is dismaying.)
Greetings from Baurheid! Your logic is sound, even if uncomfortable.
Anyone from Barrhead is always welcome here. 😁
There’s a class element to consider here.
A working class English person moving to Scotland will likely move into a scheme surrounded with predominantly Scottish neighbours. They’ll work beside Scottish colleagues and their kids will go to the local State school. Integration should come readily with time.
A middle class / upper middle class English person moving to Scotland will likely move into a middle class English ghetto. Their workplace (white collar office) will have an unusually high concentration of English colleagues and crucially, their kids will be privately educated. These people continue to listen to BBC Radio 4 (“ broadcasting from the Home Counties”) and to all intents and purposes inhabit an English bubble in a foreign land.
The private schooling is the key. This is a fundamental aspect of their continued identity as English / British. Private education in the UK accounts for 7% of education provision, in Scotland it’s less than 5%. The three pillars supporting private education in Scotland are; parents of English origin, parents of South Asian origin and parents who are, ahem, pharmaceutical entrepreneurs.
Alister Jack, our colonial Governor has an English accent, but Jack was born in Scotland, went to school in Scotland (private boarding of course), went to University in Scotland and has spent his adult life in Scotland. Jack the person is by any measure Scottish, it’s his subsumed soul that’s conflicted.
Business rates relief was to be removed from private schools in Scotland in September 2020. This was kicked into the long grass (together with much else) by the pandemic. Removal of business rates relief is due to kick back in on 1st April 2022. It remains to be seen whether this will actually happen (along with much else).
Faced with closing private schools and / or greatly inflated term fees, English middle class incomers will have the choice of sending their offspring to local, State schools (thereby facilitating cultural integration) or moving back to England.
A nation of frightened children or just straightforward mugs? Whichever you choose—the colonizer along with their homegrown administrators and sympathisers have done quite a job on us all! Have they not? It’s time we faced a few home truths about our real condition and responded accordingly without consideration of British views or British interests; a fundamental hindrance. “There is no instance in history of one foreign nation ruling another for the benefit of the other and not for its own profit.” It doesn’t get much simpler than that and well describes Scotland’s colonization in its basic essentials. Finally, the many in cringe-like denial regarding their colonized status are surely duty-bound to produce an alternative thesis by which to explain our country’s status in the world.
Of course there would be a hypocritical outcry by the English and Uncle Tams but it would dissipate before any referendum as long as the point was made well before the referendum. We need political representatives with the guts to take on the British nationalist media and establishment.
While I agree that it is utter madness to allow non Scots (those not resident permanently) a say not least when the primary obligations are not upheld and the terms of the treaty have voided the treaty in the first place, I do not agree with you referring to Catalonia as rural Spain or Spain at all. Catalonians asserted their right to independence and only those who do not recognise their right refuse to accept it. I do not recognise Spain’s authority in and over Catalonia. The people, many of whom were badly beaten, hospitalised and requiring help and protection from their own fire brigade and others made their choice. They are independent as far as I am concerned.Just as it took several years to remove the English hierarchy from Scotland in the 1300s when they tried to invade Scotland so too will it take Catalonia to remove those of the Spanish. How you refer to Catalonia and indeed Scotland sets the tone in how others view both countries. View them as occupied territories and not only will their own people start believing the bs so too will others. Folk need to be mindful of what they are saying and how they present the narrative. It is the one thing that the English establishment are very good at. They don’t need guns and other weapons when the people in Scotland simply parrot their narrative and therefore ingrain in themselves an inferiority complex in which they believe a foreign country has a say in and over what they themselves can and cannot do. Amazingly while also trying to justify why it is not the case for the foreign country. A total logic bypass.
Reminds me of Matilda and the excuses made to justify letting a foreign country dictate when they have no authority at all: https://youtu.be/UXV-x2YSnpk
No I referred to where I live in Catalonia as rural which it is.
Well said Roddy. While not quite the same in your case, Albert Memmi describes “the colonizer as one taking simply a voyage towards an easier life”.
The delayed census next year will indicate a rapid rise in the rest-UK population in Scotland, possibly to one million or more. To that must be added what human geographers term ‘extraction’, which can double the number. We should also note that the irregular local government residence-based franchise Holyrood uses for national referendums is also used for national elections to Holyrood.
A brief summary on demographic issues affecting Scotland’s independence can be accessed here: https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/07/11/determinants-of-independence-demographics/?like_comment=16958
This is quite a read Alf isn’t it ?
https://wildernessofpeace.wordpress.com/2021/06/28/scots-all-of-us-or-none-of-us/#more-7296
It can equally be argued that the anti-independence ‘No’ vote is ethnically driven.
People from rest-UK mostly vote ‘No’ because they do not hold to a Scottish nationality or identity, which reflects their own national – and hence ethnic – identity, which is not Scottish. Scots who vote ‘No’ may be suffering from what is known as ‘Appropriated Racial Oppression’, what we know as the Scottish Cultural Cringe, which is linked to the theory of ‘colonial mindset’. Both aspects of anti-independence ‘No’ voting therefore relate to ‘ethnicity’.
There is a scientific explanation for most phenomena, including for those on both sides of the cultural divide who combine to vote to block Scottish independence/liberation – and such decisions have very little to do with pensions, currency or any other mere policy issue:
https://yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com/2021/08/15/determinants-of-independence-ethnicity/comment-page-1/
Well said Alf.
Thank you,
You could have said as well that a vast majority of EU nationals living in Scotland had voted …NO ! because as your example, outside considerations prevailed, unionists told them they would be out of the EU.
I am not in favour of another referendum being the way to Independence but as it is the subject.
I arrived from France in 2013 and was amazed and chocked to receive my voting ballot for the Independence referendum a year later. I have voted and of course, try to get more information on why on earth i was permited to vote : a residential franchise i was told. A What ? Nowhere else on earth that stupid thing is implemented, only Scotland. Welsh gvt in 2020 changed their franchise, we did too ealier authorizing 16 and 17 years old to vote. Why can’t we changed the unique, unfair residential franchise into something that is worldwide accepted ?
As in Spain you would not be allowed to vote on National matters where ever in Eurooe you would have settled …
Residentail franchise is a fraud, an unfair system to the People of Scotland ( that will have to be legally define as in all other countries in the World did in their Constitution).
I too, mirroring your situation, would be a more than happy Scottish resident to let “Scottish People” decide for themselves. Me having the right to vote on National matters here is completely stupid…
Plebiscite, UDI …everything but a the same mistake as in 2014, everything but that franchise to be use again on National matters…how could people accept this ?
Take care
Paul
Well said Roddy I have been trying to express this point for so long without sounding racist and you’ve expressed it perfectly,
The simple truth is English residents in Scotland are the last people who should be allowed a vote on Scotland dissolving the union not because they are bad people but because their vote is tainted in the interest of their own land of birth which is perfectly natural,
Personally I think the vast majority of English folk are fair minded people and would accept exclusion from the vote in the same way you have in Catalonia but given the opportunity they will quite naturally always vote in the interests of their own country not Scotland just as we would and although I accept there are a few exceptions to that they are and always will be the minority.
Lets face it if a Turkey had a vote would it vote for Christmas
A Unionist turkey would be glaikit enough to vote for Christmas. Indeed, at every election they do just that.
An independence referendum is no longer the best way to get independence – why?
Because Nicola Sturgeon is still bleating about having one – that tells me all I need to know
Good evening and welcome to December 2021.
I have read many articles and comments on this crucial topic…
Living in Scotland, I too believe that constitutional elections should be reserved solely for people of original Scottish descent to decide. That’s not being undemocratic, it’s just plain common sense. No excuses. Ask the peoples of the rest of this world and see what they say.
If any reader disagrees with the above and cares to answer this question FIRST, we can then progress the debate.
Once again, this simple and basic question to be answered is:
Q. Name any nation in the world that allows foreign nationals to vote on Constitutional elections?
Thank you in anticipation.
All unionists are turkeys Roddy 🙂
Agree with the sentiments in your article roddy. The SNP under sturgeon
has not demonstrated thought or preparation to the referendum of which franchise reform
should be a leading point. maybe Alba can carry that torch
We commenters on WOS who have been saying the same thing for ages have been called nativists , blood and soilers , thick as pork , and other cosy sounding names by a person returning to Scotland after 27 years in england all because some of us object to the demotion of our indigenous nationality by offering it unconditionally to any Tom Dick or Harry from all airts and pairts , we are also regaled by how grateful and proud we should feel by people choosing our country to move to , I’m sorry I don’t feel that way I feel the people coming here are NOT coming because their heart tells them to they are coming for all sorts of personal reasons , jobs , cheaper housing , free prescriptions , less crowded , but those reasons don’t warrant gratitude they have moved here as a personal choice . I always find it arrogant that people who have moved to Scotland DEMAND an automatic right to determine the future of our independence , I appreciate that they support Scotland’s independence and work on behalf of that aim but as has been highlighted by 2014 not all incomers have that same outlook , if the people from outwith Scotland upthread were serious and determined about independence why then would they insist that the gerrymandered franchise which has already resulted in defeat be repeated again
I have to say that my position is one that I found myself on the opposite side from Stu. He attacked this position and was strongly in favour of the position of the civic nationalists. I found it strange that he did that, however we are all entitled to an opinion he and I chose to take different views on this particular topic.
I read Stuart’s comments on here and on his WOS blog , probably like yourself I have great respect for Stuart’s investigative journalism and reporting but people are allowed to have opposing views from him regarding the current franchise which I and others have . Stuart and others say there was wide discussion on the franchise and the current one was what was chosen ,which I personally don’t remember , I was always under the impression that the franchise was decided by Cameron and WM and Alex Salmond taken by surprise at the sect 30 agreement in his haste accepted it without realising it was designed to gerrymander the result
The UN sets qualifying criteria and conditions for referendums and votes to determine if a country or nation desires its independence which are specifically designed to negate and frustrate the actions of the country being left , WHY would it make ANY sense to actively sabotage and destroy your desires and dreams of independence by accommodating and encouraging votes from other nations and nationalities on your dreams by people actively and vehemently opposed to your dreams being realised
Everything about the 2014 ref was designed to fail by WM , They had TOTAL control of all broadcasting and the MSM and used it to THEIR FULL ADVANTAGE , THEY interfered in every area with flooding Glasgow with unionist mp’s from WM and bussing paid activists from england all over Scotland , THEY breached every financial regulation by using black money brought in through Ireland , THEY breached purdah with the LYING VOW , I could go on but it is a complete INSULT when people ACCUSE US of being nativist , blood and soilers , fascists or unfeeling , it seems SCOTS are destined to always have to bend the knee to every other nation or nationality because if they don’t they will be considered as bad people
No surprise I am in total agreement with you.
My understanding is that when Holyrood was established it was designated a local government (resident-based) franchise, as reflecting a ‘regional gov’ status, not a national government. That regional/local gov status and franchise has simply been carried on for national referendums. Major mistake – that local gov franchise lost Scotland our independence in 2014 as over half a million voters from outside Scotland were permitted to vote No.
All of the results are now in, compiled and reported as follows…
Question:
Name any nation in the world that allows foreign nationals to vote on Constitutional elections?
Answer:
There are NO nations in the world that allow foreign nationals to vote on Constitutional elections.
Glad we got that question cleared up for clarity.
Next!
“if you pay income taxes to a country as a working peson(sic) they you should have a say about how it is governed.”
I disagree. As a Scot, I came to England and paid all my taxes, but still do not feel it incumbent upon me to have a say in that country’s future……..FOR, IT IS NOT MY COUNTRY. I make a point of never criticising it’s institutions,.,,.Church, Government and Laws._(which I could do so, all too well)
I am but a mere transient visitor/tourist, with no real stake in the country. It is a mystery to me why you, Wull, whether incomer or indigene, feel so passionately about this vexatious question of identity and the rights conferred by mere money……..
You can merely purchase your nationality?
No. Your nationality is God-given
I return to Scotland often….and feel this…..
“Breathes there the man with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land
Whose heart hath ne’er within him burn’d,
As home his footsteps he hath turn’d,
From wandering on a foreign strand!”
“Your nationality is God-given”
Bullshit , your Nationality just happens to be wherever your parents happen to live at the time you are born.
God given ? How many God botherers are there isn Scotland nowadays ? Hilarious.
“your Nationality just happens to be wherever your parents happen to live at the time you are born”
Not for me. You need to add in parental influence and that of kith and kin, in language, thought, word and deed ……and history, geography and culture…..blut und boden….blood and soil. Then there’s education which takes place in the formative years
….On the other hand, I come from a time when people were relatively immobile and hence rooted more firmly to blood and soil during their formative years. It took six weeks for Australian relatives to get to Scotland by steamer when I was a young boy…..and England was far-off country way over the hills where people spoke in a strange accent and not very well, frequently breaking the rules of their own language.
Now, thanks to television and radio, there is no escape from those southron, dulcet tones filling our living rooms with foul language, smut, filth and even cricket.
“God-given?”….
Fate, chance,luck, whatever? You don’t get to choose your parents, relatives or country of birth or education.
You just get up and get on with it. Quite exactly why, we do so……. I wish I knew.
Unanswered questions make me uncomfortable, so I call it God’s will.
Despite a lifetime of drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney, why am I still going strong?
I say it is the will of God. He seems to be a nice chap…..so although unfashionable in certain quarters to praise him, I continue to do so. He might change his mind….and He doesn’t charge anything for his services.
Capital cost=£0. APR=0%. You’ll never get a better deal than that, sonny.
“your Nationality just happens to be wherever your parents happen to live at the time you are born.”
That would make John Beattie Malaysian.
James Kelman had a better definition: ‘if you want to know your national identity, look at who your relatives are’.
That is just nonsense and such racist views will not be tolerated. Anything else remotely like that and you will be blocked. Now voluntarily remove it!