LIVE FROM 4.30PM FRIDAY.
Today in THE Hague the ICJ ruled on the South African case that accused Israel of carrying out a genocide in Gaza. After several weeks of deliberation today the court Brought us its verdict. I think its fair to say nobody, irrespective of their viewpoint is entirely satisfied.
Our panel of Lloyd Quinan, Craig Murray discuss the verdict and the ramifications that are sure to follow this ruling. We debate all the relevant points and try to bring some clarity to the judges verdict.
Unlike the western corporate media we do not try to influence your own beliefs in this matter. We only offer our observations and insight into the events. It is up to you to form your own opinions on the rights and wrongs of today’s judgement.
Your comments as always will be welcomed.
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Very good discussion. Lot of excellent points.
The one thing not mentioned was the revival and expansion of the UN into a mediation organization, as well as a peace-keeping one, with those states not on the Security Council taking pole position.
In the end, the interim judgement was something of a fudge in that no ceasefire was ordered, the hope being that the other constraints on Israel would force a ceasefire. Israel will adhere, I think, to the substance of the ruling, but, perhaps, not to the spirit, doing the least it can get away with here.
Iran is pulling the Houthie, Hamas and Hezbollah strings without doubt. The Iranian regime will now come under increased pressure in the hope that it will collapse from within, because, as Craig says, the UK politicians will have to think twice about naked support of Israel, so, much will be done under the radar. It my sound daft, but I would not be surprised at all to discover that the West is behind South Africa in an attempt to bring Israel to heel: the Americans and British have not been at all successful in reining in the Israelis. Damage limitation seems to be on the cards.
I think that a real appreciation of the Israeli mindset is lacking in the West, even while it supports Israel. What happened to the Jews has been branded into their soul as a nation. We simply do not get it. We do not understand either the pressure that comes from always being a target of everyone, and especially the Arab nations. Israel is tiny and it is a democratic island set in a sea of Islamic fundamentalism, not recognized by the Arab states, all of who, at one time our another, have sworn to drive the Israelis into oblivion. We also forget that Jewish people lived in Palestine, too, before 1945, and many lived in neighbouring Arab states, moving to Israel in 1948 and thereafter, as tensions rose. They did not all come from Eastern Europe. Some came from North Africa only a few decades ago because they were being persecuted there. Does any of that make their actions in Gaza excusable or defensible? Of course not, but they might make them rather more explicable.
The Houthis’ targeting of international shipping is also against international law, and where are the international warrants out for the Hamas leadership, hiding in Qatar and other states? If Yemen and Gaza are so poor and their people are dying – which they are, of lack of food and medicines – where does the money come from to buy arms? Isn’t depriving your people of sustenance and life also a crime against humanity, when you are diverting funds into the procurement of arms?
If Scotland and Ireland understand dispossession, do they also understand that tiny Israel is under constant threat of dispossession, too? I make no excuses for what Israel is doing to the Palestinians because it has morphed now into wholesale and mass punishment, but, perhaps, we should not be so quick to judge. After all, we are surrounded on our southern border by a massive state in comparison to ours, a state that is also encroaching daily on our rights, resources and assets, and whose people are moving into our territory.
Genocide, like murder, requires a form of mens rea – that is, intent. Intent can take a few different forms in itself, for example: starving someone to death deliberately is still intent to murder even if a hand was not lifted against the person. It is here that Israel has fallen into crimes against humanity that leach into genocide, but, around 25% of Israel’s population is Palestinian, so how have they been drawn into genocide? Also, if genocide is taking place, is there not a duty placed upon the Palestinians not to create the conditions where genocide or crimes against humanity can take place – i.e. provocation? Provocation is a defence to murder. Is it not also a defence to crimes against humanity? An international jurisprudential question, but, in the circumstances, an important one.
Indeed, 75 years ago, atrocities were committed against each side by the other. The Israelis prevailed, bloodily, no doubt, but they will never give up Israel and will fight, if they are given no choice, to the last man, woman and child. What happens if Israel crumbles? Any survivors will again become the wandering race, expelled by the Romans, colonialists par excellence, from their homeland – and it is, a lot of it, their ancestral homeland? That much cannot be denied. Of course the BRICS nations support Palestinians. They would like to see the West crumble, too, as would many of the Islamist states. Where are we to go if and when it does?
Impossible as it might seem now, the two-state solution is the only one that makes any sense. A one-state solution would see Israelis outnumbered within two generations by Palestinians, and Israel joining the other Arab states in a solid phalanx of Islamist interests. Even a two-state solution would leave yet another Arab state on Israel’s borders, but, at least it would not be brought down from within, even as it would still be in a state of tension. The Saudis might well have come to recognize Israel, with certain conditions, had the trade agreements gone ahead, but, although the Sunnis and Shi’ites are at loggerheads (as exemplified by Saudi and Iran, and their various allies in the region) that is unlikely to happen this side of the century now. Which takes us right back to the question I have been asking consistently: what did Hamas hope to achieve with 7 October and who were pulling their strings? The West interferes with regularity, but there are other interests at play here, and the Palestinians are the least of them, used by some and punished en masse by others, caught in the middle of powers far bigger than them.