One of my favourite shows ever on TV was QI hosted by the brilliant Stephen Fry. I enjoy being informed as well as entertained. The best part of the show for me is always the bit where they destroy urban myths. Things or facts you had believed all your life that are in fact untrue. For instance Sitting Bull was not a Sioux Chief he was a medicine man and his real name was Jumping Badger. The Sioux Nation only formed one-third of the Native American army, not the entire force that defeated General Custer.That ruined cowboy movies forever more for me!
Another urban myth never aired on QI is that Holyrood was devised by British Unionists to enhance the lives of the Scottish people and bring democracy closer to the people. As proven by Lord George Robertson in 1997 while being interviewed by Brian Taylor he said, ‘Devolution will kill the SNP stone dead.’ When SLAB collaborators try to give themselves a pat on the back for ‘giving’ us devolution, remember those words, remember the sentiments.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-31129382
The only reason devolution was introduced by Labour/Liberal Vichy Scots was as a bulwark against the growing threat of the SNP. This ‘gift’ from London was not about improving Scottish democracy. It was about protecting English overlordship of its Scottish colony. Similarly it was seen as a launching pad for The Labour Party against the English Tory hegemony at Westminster. The Tories had been in power for 18 years. Labour was desperate to regain the Westminster gravy train. Scotland was a Labour stronghold and it was wrongly assumed that it would always remain that way. To cement this, the Britnat collaborators in those two English based parties decided to gerrymander the Scottish Executive as much as possible. They pretended to be giving Scots greater control over their own affairs. They deceived the people into believing they were giving them the best Proportional Representation voting system available.These were lies, it was all about keeping the real power at Westminster.
They introduced a system of voting at Holyrood that was actually done to prevent the outcomes of 2007, 2011 and 2015. The voting method chosen, The D’Hondt system was supposed to ensure a LAB/LIB Scottish Executive in perpetuity. This complicated voting system would almost always ensure that no one Party could ever gain a majority. The British Labour and Liberal Parties wrongly believed they would be the only beneficiaries of this complicated and flawed voting method.
The 2011 majority for the SNP was a complete freak result. It is as likely as you winning the Euro millions two weeks in a row. Nobody foresaw this ever happening, not even the always optimistic Alex Salmond. The chances of it ever happening again are as about likely as Brechin City winning the Champions League. This is why the House-Jocks are now saying if the SNP wins an outright majority in 2021 HR election that would be a mandate for a referendum.
Last year Stu Campbell of Wings Over Scotland floated the idea of separate Holyrood List Party dedicated to independence. The job of this Party was twofold, to ensure an overall majority for independence Parties in the chamber and to ensure that serial FPTP losers like Murdo Fraser, Annie Wells, etc. could possibly be denied a seat. These MSPs and others of the unionist persuasion have ironically benefited from SNP popularity.
I had first heard this argument about a separate independence supporting party back in 2016. A very dear friend of mine from Barrhead, John D had suggested this to me in one of our frequent discussions about independence. John, I would suggest along with Stu Campbell and James Kelly of Scotgoespop are three of the most knowledgeable guys on this voting system. Two of them believe the system can be gamed to win seats at the expense of unionists, and James Kelly doesn’t think that is possible. Strange as it may seem I think that both viewpoints are right, depending on circumstances. Confusing ,huh?
John D spent one night trying to explain the vagaries of the system to me and just how it could be used to the advantage of the independence cause. I have to say as someone who could not understand lesson number one on Algebra it was hard work.
The three guys I named are the ones to contact if you want to really understand it. Here is my simplified version D’Hondt for dummies. The more successful you are in the constituency seats the harder it is to win seats via the List system. The converse is also true. You can do very badly in the constituencies and do ok on the list and win yourself a few seats, ergo Fraser, Wells, Tomkins, Leonard.
Let us be honest in 1999 and 2003 the List was good for the SNP. In subsequent elections it has saved the Unionist Parties from wipeout. It is arguable that the Tories wouldn’t exist in Scotland if not for the List system keeping them on life support since 1999.
At the last Holyrood election a group of far left parties, sponsored and promoted in the main by The Byres Road People’s Front for the Liberation of HIllhead tried to use the List system to promote their brand of Independence. They went under the banner of RISE. It turned into an unmitigated disaster. They made several huge tactical and practical errors. Firstly they openly attacked the SNP instead of aiming their fire at the Unionist Parties. The influence of the Independence Puritans of Byres Road overshadowed the tactic of actually winning seats. There was no recognised, trusted figurehead for voters to identify with and no reaching out to the YES Movement for support. I would suggest that their open attacks on the SNP ensured their demise. Instead of displaying their credentials as credible allies of SNP and wider YES Movement they came over as the exact opposite.
IMHO the concept was right, it was the implementation that was the mistake. When Stu Campbell suggested last year that maybe, just maybe he would form a WOS List Party the reactions were predictable and those screaming, the loudest, were the usual suspects. The pearl grabbers, the Puritans, the easily offended, and the narrow minded all piled in with indignation. Many others and I took a different view. Stu said he would only contemplate this if the SNP failed to bring a referendum before the Holyrood elections. Well, we now know that the referendum ship has sailed. He said the function of this new list Party was not as an opponent of the SNP but as an ally. He would be targeting the Unionists and the seat warmers of Holyrood, not the SNP.
I personally think his concept is sound. I would, however with the greatest of respect suggest Stu is not the best person to lead such a Party. Stu is Marmite when it comes to indy supporters. Personally I think he is one of our most valuable assets and a mine of information unsurpassed by anyone else. I would say his Wee Blue Book during the 2014 Referendum was a game changer and one of the main reasons we got to 45%. All that said he has a remarkable talent of rubbing up a lot of people the wrong way. That is not conducive to winning votes.
I do however think now is the time to implement his idea of an Independence List Party. I know of two such Parties at different stages of formation. One is well down the road to being a legally formed Party. The other is in the early days of inception. Today, Sunday 2/02/20 there is a public meeting in Glasgow of a group starting to explore the idea of a List Party.
I would suggest if two, three or more of these Parties form they will only end up destroying each other and possibly let more Unionists gain seats. If there is to be a new independence list only party it must be a single entity. It must have a recognised and trusted figurehead that the public and more importantly the SNP voters will trust. I can think of one person that would tick all of those boxes. The question is would he be willing to give up his present career and become a Party leader and MSP? I have not spoken to this person about such a possibility. I would imagine anyone that takes a keen interest in the YES Movement knows this individual and I would be surprised if you did not agree with my interpretation of his good character and suitability. This, of course, is not the time or place to name him.
I also think that any new Party cannot have other issues like GRA or Land Reform or Mass Nationalisation or any other contentious issues on its platform. It has to be in Holyrood to keep the SNP feet to the fire on independence and as many Unionists out of the chamber as possible. We cannot have this new grouping supporting things like repealing OBFA or ever under any circumstances supporting the unionists on anything. They are in Holyrood to give it a massive Independence supporting majority. One that cannot be denied by the unionists.
A litmus test of this concept is this, look at the people that oppose it the most. The Unionists and their media, the Green Party, the Puritans, the pearl grabbers, the wokes. I acknowledge genuine honourable folk like James Kelly hold a view that the D’Hondt cannot be ‘gamed.’ I respect James and his view. I just don’t happen to agree with him on this.
Any new List Party has to make it clear to the SNP support they are there purely to support independence. They are not a rival. They are an ally. They need to convince our Independence New Media to support the concept. If this new List Party took just 2 unionist seats from each region the unionists voice will be diluted considerably. It also is dependent on SNP doing well in the constituencies. Speeches like Friday do not ensure that will happen. We can only hope that events move in a manner favourable to the SNP and our referendum. An Indy List party properly, led, run and funded backed by our Independence new media may just enthuse many to support this latest self-determination weapon.
The problem I see here is how do we get the message out to indy supporters to give their second vote to this list party in other words how do we sell the idea, it’s a no brainer for the political anoraks but most people are turned off by politics and don’t have a clue what the D’Hondt system is let alone understand how it works.
Graeme
That is why I am suggesting a trusted figurehead and the need to get our new media and as many as possible of the bloggers and commentators to get behind the plan.
Who would you like this trusted figurehead to be may I ask?.
It is just my own opinion and on any new Party I am not involved just at present an interested observer. I can say it is none of the names mentioned thus far 😁😁
Angus Robertson?
Nope😁😁
Who’s the figurehead in mind mine would be Lesley Riddoch?
The power of social media my friend,It certainly won’t happen through the state media.
I agree Graeme, I admit I hadn’t a clue about this and thought I was doing the right thing by voting for the SNP twice!, This information needs to be simplified because after reading posts on Facebook I realize I’m certainly not alone in my understanding in the voting system, clear simplified information on this subject would definitely help and we need this information spread, also the list vote candidate preferred for enabling Scotland to be independent should be named to maximize their share of the votes, I really don’t want to see 3,4 or 5 independence candidates on the list vote options, I do apologise if I’ve not fully understood the list voting system and appreciate further clarification on the subject!
John
Another pro independence party has been needed for a long while. Where I will disagree with you is they must stand up for women and girls rights.
That is the very thing they must not do, The GRA is toxic.
Another point I’d like to make is although I mostly agree this party should stand purely on Independence there is one issue that could be a massive vote winner which is this insane GRA legislation certain elements in the SNP are trying to push through.
I know there are women (and men) out there who won’t vote SNP because of this madness but would surely vote for a party that stood against it.
The natural partner for the SNP would seem to be the Greens as they are pro Indy and have some within them who are espousing good policies that could only be put into place with aid of the SNP.
I have reservations on different levels though that some of their policies are so extrapolated to be axiomatically impossible to apply without damaging peoples’ wellbeing, in the short term anyway.
Another one is the boorach that NS has allowed to be given legs and oxygen; GRA. Funnily enough I agree with J K R on this.
My fear the the lonnytoons Bute House mob would decamp to the new Party thereby spreading the electorate-negative policy zeal.
The problem would be that the SNP old guard might rail at the thought of sharing their hard fought for Independence with them?
I really don’t care what colour the cat is, so long as it catches and kills the mouse.
They,
Sounds like a plan to me.
Two comments , firstly , if it could work then Westminster will shift the goal posts ,, again ,, abnd secondly don’t you think Sean Connery’s a bit old to be nation-building?
Graeme’s point about GRA is well made but I don’t think explicitly opposing GRA change as a second policy is necessary or helpful.
Keep it simple: Independence & candidates who can be trusted to use good sense vote on other issues.
The infiltration of the SNP by a particular ideology is going to blow up big if the GRA changes are not sorted. The media are (generally) holding off detonating this until the SNP are fully exposed by voting for this but you can be sure that they are gathering a collection of stories about this.
My wife has gone from SNP member to someone who refuses to vote vote for them because of this. There is growing awareness at branch level about this but I fear it is too late to sort before elections.
The Green Party would normally be an alternative but they are in a worse mess on this issue.
Having a Party that is not actively supporting this ideology but is focused on Independence would get her vote
I would suggest that the figurehead needs to be a general able to take the fight to the unionist parties. Someone like the leader who took independence figures fro 23% to 45% in two years perhaps?
I like the idea, the second vote certainly does not suit the SNP by using this formula. It would need prominent persons support and a simplified explanation for the confused to understand. I suppose if you played the ” get rid of carcrash etc.” card then it could work,
Hi, thanks for that bit if historical facts, thanks for trying to find an answer to unify the Yes side under a banner. By the way devolution might have not not been aimed at ousting SNP ? As far as I know we are not Independent and that is the real point. Devolution was aimed at avoiding the Yes movement to be unified by giving a poisonous hope to the yessers. A double trick which would prevent, whatever the scenarios, to lose Scotland. The scenario is SNP in power with that poisonous devolution to deal with and whatever good they could do in managing the country it does not help the Independence issue, and inevitably delay it. I would say now that inevitably our movement is more than ever divided. The natural way of thinks as we all are at the mercy of our masters and being unified during such a length of time is very very hard. On a French radio this week, they interviewed lads from Londonderry. The vocabulary was violent, the only solution was violent. One guy said : never seen in the all history a country gaining his Independence whithout fighting. Actually he is right and all the Kudos for us to find another way and not repeat History. We fight against the core Nature of things…
I brought this up recently on Twitter, and was castigated (you personally wouldn’t have noted as you are the only single person to block me on Twitter in 6 years!). My idea was to involve celebs like Lesley Riddoch, Janet Godley, Hardeep Singh Kohli, David Hayman, etc as the list contenders. That would get attention and also a hoot! I was told the system couldn’t be gamed. I still think there’s mileage in it.
Bring it on, and quickly. James Kelly is wrong, in my opinion, as any system that does not outlaw such methods can be gamed. The new List Party has to be in place quickly to have an impact and avoid Westminster interference before the 2021 elections.
Lesley Riddoch would be my choice as a leader if she was up for it.
44 indy groups attended the meeting in Glasgow today and agreed to go forward with the Indy list seats campaign. The Peoples Alliance (temporary name) will now move forward and with only one goal, Independence. No policies, No promises and No Holding the snp to ransom. Support the snp in the constituency seats and stand only for the list seats. With only 25% of the indy votes that could garner a dozen list seats and give the snp government a guaranteed indy majority. 50% of the vote could even possibly make the alliance the opposition. Think of it, Two indy parties far outnumbering the unionists in Holyrood. There is a lot of work to do though before it ever comes to that possible future and we wil need all the help that we can muster. You can visit our current page on facebook to join in the conversation. You can also visit the real Scottish independence Movement site for more information. (This has nothing to do with the new sim group on fb).
What is the facebook page?!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/458998201699681/ this is the fb page
A big effort is certainly needed to create a List Alliance for May 202. The Unionists will continue and increase their current attempts to rubbish NHS Scotland, Police Scotland and the Education Services in an attempt to persuade voters that the SNP are running Scotland badly. We must start to get this sorted now for 2 reasons:-
1. Lest the path to Indy has not been paved by May 2021, the Independence majority will need safeguarding to allow future attempts when/if needed. .
2. There is currently much misuse of the List system …whereby MSPs who have been rejected many times by the Scottish electorate continue to take their places in Holyrood anyway, usually as List MSPS of political parties based outside Scotland.
That effort started today in Glasgow. It was a very positive exploratory meeting.
I’ll be honest & say i was not a great believer in Wings idea. Not that i didn’t think it was a great idea, i did, but the concept of being there as back-up for SNP, or YES men as i liked to call it, didn’t sit with me.
Could it work ? I believe it could, but the danger is of ppl not getting to hear of them. It’s all very well using platforms like twitter/facebook, but the vast majority of the electorate don’t use them, or not in the fashion we do. So getting exposure is a serious problem cos you cannot rely on much, if any, from MSM.
You talked about figurehead of any new party needing to be one recognised by many. That is true, but it is not only the figurehead that needs to be recognised & trusted figures. It needs to be also those who are standing as candidates on the list to have a much better chance of success.
You mentioned RISE, and how they made the mistake of making themselves out as rivals rather than allies to SNP. That i believe was only part of their failings, the other being to far to the left in their politics for the average voter to give them their vote.
The problem i have with any new party under an ‘Alliance Banner’ is that when it comes to voting on issues they revert to their party policy & not on Alliance policy, because Alliance policy only revolves around Indy related matters.
So when ppl say gaming the system, i see an ‘Alliance of parties ‘ as a chance for those parties to game the system for their own advantage.
I don’t for one minute believe that they are not for Indy, quite the opposite, but see it also as an opportunity to get a higher level of exposure than they would normally warrant.
Maybe im a cynic, but would i normally give my 2nd vote to HOF, SSP & such like. That’s what i’d be doing though, if i had to follow through on the great idea of an ‘Alliance Party ‘.
Id much rather put my vote & support into a party that is focused on it’s own policies rather than that of another. One who if elected is there to not only support SNP on Indy, but to keep SNP in check on policies like GRA etc.
Lets face it, if you want Indy & your an Independence Party elected on that ticket. Would you isolate a large number of your voters on a policy that will lose you the very thing you were elected on.
By all accounts, SNP are willing to sacrifice that vote, and any new party must be up to the challenge of opposing that view & getting those voters back. To do nothing risks Independence itself.
My comment from above:
I brought this up recently on Twitter, and was castigated (you personally wouldn’t have noted as you are the only single person to block me on Twitter in 6 years!). My idea was to involve celebs like Lesley Riddoch, Janey Godley, Hardeep Singh Kohli, David Hayman, etc as the list contenders. That would get attention and also a hoot! I was told the system couldn’t be gamed. I still think there’s mileage in it.
Lets call it SNP2 – or … umm the SNC (Scottish Nations Collective).
A List party – it will (other than greens) pull in a lot of votes.
I am willing to stand, and pay the deposit if required.
SNP has its share of infiltrators now & it is obvious. They have become emboldened & have no qualms in attacking the party and its leaders under the guise of it is a broadchurch with free speech for all. This does not go down well with many who expect loyalty and common cause to be front and centre. Scottish Greens led by Harvie has become toxic, the GRA issue has brough the worms out. The verbal abuse from people in the parties with influence is out of control. I am suspicious of infiltrators from that Byres Rd lot. A certain extinct museum piece on twitter take great joy from alienating women. From GRA to older generations he is relentless in scorning, belitteling, bullying and downright abusive. Who is he and his allies working for? We hear nothing from the Leader calling him to book. Wasn’t it said getting the womens vote was one of the difficulties in 2014? Seems to me certain folk are trying to keep women away still. A list party would be a lifeboat for women and men, who feel their opinions and fears are being dismissed by the main party. I will hold my nose and support SNP – we will sort out the infiltrators later when we have new Gov. We are more able to change bad policy if we are Independent even if it takes years. Stay in this union we have little chance of changing anything.
Sorry – forgot to mention – I could head it up as well. Creds: @2p3rf3ct
Half Scot Half Eng.
Pro-EU.
Recently escaped England with wife from Brixton and child (we moved due to education being terrible in Eng), brought mum up too.
Former academic now working in City of London (please ….)
Heavy tech background, as well as science.
Highlands based.
The problem with all of these List party ideas is that it will be destroyed by egos, infighting and factionalism. You can see it in earlier comments it’s starting over GRA.
Conceptually sound. Practically doomed to failure
When the wheel was being invented thank goodness the inventor never thought, well it will be too difficult so let’s just not bother.
Yeah piss off the Greens that will help, we wouldn’t have been this far without them. And the alliance over Independence is fraying at the edges already. But it would be typically and beautifully ironic if we done the very greatest snatching of defeat from the jaws of Victory we’d ever had. Losing the pro Independence majority we currently enjoy. But dad on y’all